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Dec 19, 2019

In our 31st "Deming Lens" episode, host Tripp Babbitt shares his interpretation of wide-ranging aspects and implications of Dr. Deming's theory of management. This week he looks at Dr. Deming's message of "win-win."

Show Notes

Deming Institute Podcast - Episode 31

The Deming Lens - The "Win'Win" of Dr. Deming's Message

The Deming Philosophy Socialism

The US Mindset

The Neuroscience of Deming

Using System of Profound Knowledge for "Win-Win"




Tripp: [00:00:15] This is episode 31 of the Deming lens. And in this episode, we're going to talk about the win win of Dr. Demings message.


Tripp: [00:00:28] Hi, I'm Tripp Babbitt, host of the Deming Institute podcast, and this week I was doing a little bit of, I don't know, reminiscing, looking back at some of the old podcasts that I episodes that I'd done in the past, and I came across one that seemed very appropriate for the times that we seem to be on.


Tripp: [00:00:53] And I'm not trying to drag this podcast into the politics of things, but I found that Dr. Demings message was very unique. And so I've titled this up Deming Lens. The Win Win of Demings message. And I'll play this. Little clip that came out of a 10 minutes with Dr. Deming that I did back in, I think it was 2016. So let me play this clip and then we'll talk about it.


Audience: [00:01:32] Our participants up here are wondering if you are proposing a socialist society.


Dr. Deming: [00:01:39] Well, I never said any such thing. Maybe you did. You brought it up. I didn't. Win-win, win-win everybody win. Are you against it? Nobody is against it. Win-win. Everybody win.


Audience: [00:01:59] But is that socialism, doctor?


Dr. Deming: [00:02:05] Oh, that's nonsense. Let's get a little sense into our heads. Socialism means this.


Tripp: [00:02:11] What Dr. Deming goes on to draw. Here is a bell curve, a very wide bell curve. People on one end of the bell curve for the people that have a high income. And then on the lower end, it's people with a low income and then obviously a lot of people in the middle. And what he describes socialism as is moving the people on the high end and the low end to the middle. As opposed to what he's talking about is shifting the entire bell curve to the right so that everybody has higher incomes, but a much narrower bell curve.


Dr. Deming: [00:02:55] We're trying to win-win everybody win. Everybody get ahead.


Audience: [00:03:00] I'm concerned that your ideals might be perceived as socialist and that people of 10 Americans tend to have a negative view of socialism as opposed to capitalism over.


Dr. Deming: [00:03:11] We're just trying to find her aim here is to survive. We've been describing a system and a system. There's one in which everybody comes out, this UN system must have an aim. The aim that I propose is that everybody gain. Everybody come out ahead. The stockholders. Quality of life for everybody.


Tripp: [00:03:37] In this last clip, Dr. Deming talks about what motivates people.


Audience: [00:03:41] If paying people doesn't motivate them and measuring people doesn't motivate them. Then what does motivate them?


Dr. Deming: [00:03:50] Well, I don't think we need to recall all of yesterday. All people ask for a chance to take joy in their work. That's what they ask for more than anything, because they've got to pay. They've got to live,.


Tripp: [00:04:06] As I search through out of the crisis, I found this particular quote, which is education, industry and government should interact as a system with cooperation. Win, win. And I made a little note add I know how many years ago, but I said cooperation equals everybody wins.


Tripp: [00:04:27] And that's really the message we have here. And I don't know what form of marketplace that we have or government or any of those types of things. But the idea, Dr. Demings idea of win, win, no matter what form of government you have, no matter what market system that you have, whether you're a capitalist or a socialist or whatever you might be, that everybody wins.


Tripp: [00:04:57] So that is opposed to some of the things that we see played out, especially in the U.S., where we have a zero sum game where somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. And a lot of this is cultural. We're very competitive society as we grow up playing baseball or basketball. When team wins, when team loses. And that's kind of the mindset of especially Americans. You know, that that somehow this has to play out in business. And once we look to cooperation, that everybody can win. And Dr. Demings message in that, that gets much, much different. Now, I could tell you that over the years, having done workshops and seminars and it go through Redbeard experiment, the one sticking point for everybody and Dr. Demings message is always this idea of win win and how he he thinks about rewards and bonuses and things of that sort.


Tripp: [00:06:01] And. Almost every time I and I can't remember a time when it didn't come up. Somebody would say, wasn't this either communism or socialism? And I think that it's a much different message than that. It's one of how do we look at our system? How do we make it so that everybody can win? And I think that's a really important message, especially for the times that we are in now, is how can we benefit all people?


Tripp: [00:06:34] It's not a matter, as Dr. Deming said, at least in his message, is that it's not a matter of moving people with high incomes to the middle and the low incomes more to the middle. It's a matter of shifting the entire curve of the people so that everybody's winning and that that everybody's coming out ahead. And that is something that that needs needs to be focused on.


Tripp: [00:07:00] And it really gets to a lot of things in neuroscience in that if if we aren't being in a situation where we can be win, win, then we wind up getting into these arguments that we have now about fairness and what's fairness is compromised in people's minds, then they that it creates a really bad situation in organizations.


Tripp: [00:07:31] It's something that you're being evaluated on all the time. And I think it's why a lot of people, when the bell rings, are ready to go home and actually do something they enjoy.


Tripp: [00:07:41] And it doesn't have to be that way. If if we're looking for policies, if we're looking to develop a system, how do we go about developing a win win scenario for everybody in the organization? Even with competitors and for society as a whole, it's a great question to ponder.


Tripp: [00:08:05] Dr. Demings recipe or suggestion for coming up with a win win is all steeped in his system of profound knowledge.


Tripp: [00:08:17] The more that we understand the systems that we work in and we understand that they're greater than the sum of their parts. There's a Senate synergy that exists by improving a system. So that's the first part.


Tripp: [00:08:31] Another part would be how do we go about learning so many organizations are?


Tripp: [00:08:40] Do they make a decision and whether it works or not? I made a decision and I move forward with it. But they're not willing to change that decision or pivot that decision on that decision or scrap that decision. And this creates another scenario where you you are in a win lose.


Tripp: [00:09:03] And it's this hierarchical type of thinking that creates I I'm in charge. I have the power. And therefore, you and if I'm doing something wrong and you can see it doesn't matter because I have the power so that the learning component theory of knowledge becomes a major factor, that we are failing and improving and not just making decisions and then kind of firmly planting our feet in the ground or our heads in the sand. The other part is, you know, if you understand the systems component, you can understand it from a theory of variation standpoint by looking at your organization as a system and how the outputs of the data that you have and everyone's heard me ramp before, but not enough organization is a organizations are using an understanding of control charts and using controlled charts in their organization to help improve. It's mind boggling to me how you put it can improve without having a control chart. And then the fourth thing is psychology. I've started looking into neuroscience and how that is playing out. But in essence, the psychology of it, at least what's just take a look at neuroscience. And I talked earlier about fairness. Well, fairness is a huge component. Autonomy is a huge component of an employee or a person in a in a country under some rule. We all look at fairness and whether things are perceived as fair. But there's a lot of different types of actions that you can take and development of new theories to achieve a win win that Dr. Deming talked about in this message.


Tripp: [00:11:00] So I think that this is. Something that. Everyone should take to heart and then try and find Win-Win types of situations in their organizations. And if you take Dr. Deming system of profound knowledge and overlay that in your organization, start to look at things from that perspective. I think you think that you'll come out ahead.


Tripp: [00:11:23] Now, I personally have found it very difficult to change people's thinking because Dr. Demings message is perceived in many circles, especially when you get in to salespeople as a socialist type of mindset, because, you know, it's all about the commission, it's all about the rewards, it's all about those types of things. So my adventures have taken me to the point that if you're going, you can't change people's minds. It's just you can't have it's not possible. I believe may have tried to out logic people. I've tried to argue with people about Dr. Demings message and the logic of it. But it's such an emotional thing that it's very difficult to change people's look. You can't change people's thinking and they have to change it on their own. It's the bottom line. And what you can do is put out put them in situations where they can experience things very differently. And something I've been working on very heavily is putting a critical thinking class together so that people can experience within their own organizations.


Tripp: [00:12:43] Dr. Demings win win type of message. So putting him in situations where they can be critical thinkers about what's going on does not judge mental types of thinking. But looking at the organ is taking a step back. What's going on within your own organization and.


Tripp: [00:13:03] Putting you in scenarios that you can start to see the advantages of the system, a profound knowledge.


Tripp: [00:13:15] Thank you for listening to the Deming Institute podcast. Stay updated on the latest blogs, podcasts, programs and other activities at